We’ve all been there. You are trying to find new band members. You put out flyers, ads, or even post on social media. Then, whenever someone shows interest in your band (they call you or audition), they do not have the same drive and ambition that you have. This situation actually occurs for most bands throughout the music business. Unfortunately, most bands do not know how to solve this problem in order to find the right members. Remember this general rule: If you are in the company of band members who are truly success minded, there are no boundaries to what you can accomplish. If you have a band full of unmotivated band members, the chances of succeeding in the music business are close to zero. Here are some tips for finding committed musicians.
Tip 1: In order to build success for your band, you will need to consistently put out a great deal of effort (this applies even once you’ve begun to “make it”). If your band only contains a couple of people who do all of the work, the amount of work will simply be too much to handle on your own. As a result, the band will likely not achieve significant success. Once you start to notice that the other musicians in your band are not putting out much effort to help the band, bring this up with them. Tell them that they have only one chance to change their ways. If you then notice that they have not made any efforts to turn things around, cut them from the band. These people will only drag your band down.
Tip 2: It is very common for potential band members to talk about becoming successful, but not actually follow up on what they say. Every musician wants to become highly successful in music, but very few musicians will truly put out the effort in order to achieve success. You will run into these kinds of people all the time. People like this will want to join your band, but won’t be able to help your band in the long run (they will only slow down your progress). Keep away from these types of musicians at all costs.
Tip 3: Some musicians make for excellent band members from a purely musical standpoint. However, it is a very common situation that talented musicians actually prevent their band from making progress in music. This is because talented musicians (like any musician) can still be the “wrong” people for your band. If you want to achieve great success with your band, you will need to focus on the wider scope of where the band is going. This means, if someone is the wrong person for your band, you need to let them go (even if they can play great).
Tip 4: Finding the right band members may sometimes seem like an impossible task. However, remember that the most dedicated musicians are also looking for you at the same time that you are looking for them. These people are also going through the same difficulties as you, and share the same desire to play in a successful band as you do.
Tip 5: There are many bands that have already achieved high success in music who are unsatisfied with some of their current band members. It is a mistake to assume that because a band is already successful, they are not actively looking to find the right musicians. It is possible that people from these bands could join with your band instead or even that you could replace a member in their band.
Think about all that you will be able to do once you have found the right musicians for your band. This means being surrounded by musicians who not only talk big but do big. These are people who are highly motivated, and work hard on a continual basis to make progress in their music. Once you have these people on your side, you will become a totally unstoppable force.
Maybe the article should be called “10 Questions and considerations to finding the magical number, or more specifically, value worth playing” but please read on.
This is a controversial article to write and I expect people to totally disagree, which is cool. If you have other ideas, please share, this is all about community. I write these articles to evoke thought so I hope the time I spend on stuff like this is helpful.
I’ve been fortunate enough to travel the country and meet a lot of stellar musicians, bands, managers, and folks in the industry. Inevitably, if you are talking shop with these folks, pay sometimes becomes a conversation piece and for the average cover band, the subject of pay can seem taboo as to not show your cards.
However, I’ve found in my dealings with seasoned bands that understand how networking works, this subject leads to great dialog, teaming, and unity when you share info to help others. It also leads to gigs!
Spoiler alert though, most agree that the common bar gig musician is not getting rich and barely making above minimum wage when you dissect the numbers. Matter of fact, time after time, the average pay per musician is the exact same rate for the typical bar gig across the nation, regardless how great you are.
So, this article is not about “your worth” or anything which might get you on the defensive, rather, it’s about factors that you may consider in your negotiations to 1. Get the gig and 2. Establish a rate and value which is feasible for everyone (venue, people, band..etc).
The good news: Venues are opening their doors again with open arms for artists and bands to play. People are hungry for live entertainment. The environment is still not where it was pre COVID but the fact there are some places to play is a positive.
So back to the question, how much do we charge?
Unfortunately, I’d love to just give you a number but the answer is based on many many factors. Like investments, your evaluation is critical and sometimes it’s about the long-term gains versus the short term quick gains.
So, let’s arm you with some considerations which might help answer your own questions based on your own requirements. This is just a sample list of considerations and questions. You can get as deep as you like in analysis.
Facts: The venue (bar, clubs)
Venues operate to make money, it’s a business and it’s expensive to run. Rarely there will be a venue that says “hey, let’s build a venue so bands can experience great shows and get paid regardless if we make any money” Rather, it’s “let’s be strategic in how we can afford entertainment to increase sales and enhance our business and margins”. Going further, some venues right at this moment are saying “I don’t think we can afford bands because we’re losing money with some of them” (I’m sure you’ve seen the decline across the nation).
Knowing this should immediately trigger the strategic side of you. Let’s do some analyzing!
Do I want to play this venue?
Ok, I was tempted to do an entire flow chart for this article but let’s stick to 10 questions to help generate some decision factors.
Does the venue provide production (sound, lights, backline)? If so, easy gig. However, it is a quality production system? Did you know a bad sound system can be a liability? Regardless of pay, the production could ultimately be a liability that pays negative dividends thanks to social media and live videos. Also, considering production rental costs are high, you may want to factor this as an additional value on top of your pay given an average small PA and lights rental is $500 or more.
What type of built-in crowd does the venue have? This is a critical piece to help get you in the ball park of expectations for budget. However, this requires you visit the venue. Hint: Showing your support for the venue before approaching them is a big deal (trust me). By looking at their pay model (door, cover charge..etc). you can quickly access a working range of budget. As an example, if there is a $5 cover charge and average of 100 people. It’s easy to see there is $500 in reserve. Some venues will do a percentage of that, others will do 100%. $5 a person in attendance is a good number to start at in your calculations, even if there is no cover charge. Don’t shoot the messenger, I’m sure you are worth more but the economy doesn’t work that way. You can put in other factors such as additional funding as a restaurant..etc but I’m keeping it simple.
How many people will we bring to the show? In addition to the built-in crowd, how many fans are you bringing. Consider the calculations as we did earlier in your negotiations but be honest, otherwise, the venue could lose money and then your band is no longer an asset or future gigs may be impacted.
Is it local? What are my operational costs? Local gigs usually provide more fans and much less operational costs. Unless your band is regionally known, expect a reduction in attendance outside a 50 miles radius. With added travel costs, the location of the venue becomes a large factor. You can certainly try and add on the travel expense to your price, however, it’s not a competitive edge if people don’t really know your band and the venue is not reaching out to you. Be smart on this one and look at the long term options of maybe playing the venue to establish the presence for future growth.
Is it a smoke filled venue? Some bands / vocalists don’t want to play that environment and some fans or patrons may not visit. Consider it as a factor.
At this point, you should quickly be able to establish if you want to play the venue. NOTE: This does not necessarily mean the venue wants you to play there. Now, let’s look a little deeper into ourselves and the band.
Why do we play music? I’m pretty sure if you are reading this article, it wasn’t because you planned to make money when you started. You felt something you’ve never felt before. You probably wanted to be famous and expected money would flow. You may have wanted to get that girl or guy because musicians seem cool. Truth is, you probably play because it’s a passion and the most fun thing you can do with your clothes on (or off for that matter). This is a factor to consider at all times. I’ve seen many bands forgo opportunity because of false values they place on themselves… even to the point that they are forgotten because they hardly play anywhere. Don’t play for free.. but don’t miss an opportunity.
What is the band minimum? Only you and your teammates can answer this question. What will get you out of bed or away from watching TV or surfing the web to go out and play? At no point would I suggest “free” unless it’s an asset to your music journey (which there are those times) but it’s your standard you set for yourself and band. Consider your operational costs, what does it cost to get to the venue (gas, food..etc).. make it a factor.
Are we willing to invest? If you are an original band, expect every show to be an investment towards future dividends. If you are a cover band, you may not see things the same way as you may look at playing as a “job”. Regardless how you look at it, you are investing your time, energy, and talent for a reason. Make sure your investment pays dividends whether than is money or just the best time of your life. If it’s not fun, don’t do it. Consider your investment and its dividend as a factor.
Does your band play songs people want to hear? Did you know that most people don’t care if you play the B side to some obscure song which has the most advanced bass and drum lick on earth? Did you know Wagon Wheel will generally ALWAYS work? I’m being silly but your song choices directly effect your profit center as well. Consider this as a factor. Maybe the better question is “Are you playing for yourself or others?”
Does your band provide production? Many clubs do not have proper production. If your production is top tier and ran properly, it can be a factor in your negotiations… but this is generally when you’ve established a show that people come and see.
If you wanted to really get fancy, you could almost assign some values to a calculation based on your own numbers. However, this is looking a value / investment versus just money in hand. It’s a bigger look at the business versus just cash in hand. I hope you can understand the difference, just like investing.
Example Band 1:
Does the venue provide production (sound, lights, backline)? Yes (+$500)
What type of built-in crowd does the venue have? Yes 80 people (+$400)
How many people will we bring to the show? 20 people (+$100)
Is it local? What are my operational costs? Yes (- $50)
Is it a smoke filled venue? No ($0)
$950 in value to band
I hope this article could spawn some different views to paint a picture of value and how you may approach what to charge. Rock on!
I was in Church yesterday and the message touched on something personally I’ve dealt with in my entire music career or life in general. For those that know me, I’m somewhat ambitious, I like to sometimes go against the grain to simply prove something can be done, especially when people say it cannot. It’s just how I’m wired and I’ve always tried to improve things, whether that meant taking apart perfectly working electronics to make it better as kid or in my adult life helping others pursue their journeys in business and music. I really just enjoy the process and seeing folks embrace opportunity to pursue dreams.
This little write up is to share some of the things you may encounter (like i did) in your pursuit of goals and hopefully encourage folks to not let others (specifically who have zero experience) influence you away from your goals and dreams.
The sermon used the movie “42” to display examples and then biblical elements were talked about with recent history..etc. The movie is a good one. It’s all about Jackie Robinson, the first black athlete to play in Major League Baseball. Jackie was given an opportunity to play ball even when the odds were stacked against him… way against him. He took on a huge task to have the courage to pursue his goals and dreams at all costs, even when everyone around him told him it would not work.
Spoiler alert: Jackie changed the world of sports, ending racial segregation in baseball, and becoming an MVP. His talent and uncompromising focus on his goals is an incredible testament to those who pursue excellence.
Ok, what does this have to do with music? Well, in your journey, you’re gonna have people who oppose you, much like Jackie had. At every turn, you’ll probably have someone with their opinion or beliefs ready to cut you down.
I cannot even fathom the burden that Jackie Robinson had, however, I do recognize that one thing will remain the same, unless we change it, people will always have an opinion on your goals and dreams and some actually try to prevent you from succeeding.
I’ll be honest, after the sermon, I was left there thinking how blessed I’ve been. I was able to reflect on my poor decisions as well as ones that ended up good by the grace of God. As a musician and business person though, I related to the struggle of people telling me things like “it’s not doable”, “don’t”, “you can’t”, criticized my activities, or have created false narrative or bad mouth things which I’ve been involved with.
So, you may be reading this and thinking the same thing has happened or is happening to you at this very moment. You might have haters toward your band? Maybe you’ve been told you’ll never be good? Maybe you’ve been told to give up the dream?
Well, rest assured, this is human stuff and it goes back to the since the beginning of time.
So, for what it’s worth, I’ll share my take on what I feel are the top 3 reasons why some people to go down these roads. The good news is, once you can identify the “why”, their opinions may not be all that important after all. By the way, this is about the negative people, the impediments as I like to call them. When and if you find a supporter who has the experience, same values, and commitment, learn as much as possible. Ok, on to the top 3 reasons people sometimes suck.
Jealousy. Seems kinda stupid but yes, if you are doing something musically and others are taking notice, expect to get some haters. Jealousy often reflects insecurity. Successful and happy artists don’t have time to talk badly about other artists because they’re too busy doing awesome things with their music. In our local scene, we really cannot afford to talk badly about each other. In my recent experience, it takes about 5 minutes for the person to find out around these parts. That’s how long it took for me to hear about some folks making a few remarks about a project of mine. We are a small community, word travels very quickly… and really, why would you give a crap what I’m doing. LOL.
Seriously though, here are some hard core facts: We’re all gonna die, we all wish we were better musicians, we all just want to eat, we all just want to have fun and be a part of something bigger than ourselves. It’s pretty simple, support each other. There is no time for jealousy in what we do, we’re all the same, in the same community, and flying on this big rock in space. No need for jealousy, it looks bad.
Fear / Threatened. Yep, in the eyes of some folks, they may be threatened if you actually succeed. They fear that maybe their musical endeavors will somehow be diminished because of your success. This type of thinking is completely backwards. The saying “all ships rise at high tide” applies directly to our music community. When a band becomes successful or even a music community, all in the area will see growth. This reaches all the way down to studios, photographers…etc.
More importantly, if you are setting your goals, do not fear FAILURE. The biggest killer of goals in the internal fear of failure. Remember, surviving mistake = experience. Be prepared to gain a ton of experience in your journey and don’t let others fear impact your ability to give things a shot. There is a reason it’s called WD-40… because water displacement 1 through 39 did not work. Could you imagine if that guy would have stopped at 39? LOL
Frustrated / Unhappy. Some may be frustrated that their own ambitions, drive, or actions are not getting as much ground as yours. These folks’ generally want to try and prevent others from succeeding in some diabolical plan to keep you at their level. Some may be unhappy because they feel their opinion is not being heard or even frustrated that the community is changing without their blessing. Here is the deal though, they have nothing to do with your success. The unhappiness is likely based on not putting their own goals into action.
We’re all gonna get frustrated at some point but putting it off on others makes absolutely no sense. When you do, you look like an ass. LOL
Last bit of advice from an old fat guitar player dude: As far as goals / dreams, it takes guts, passion, like the same passion to breath, and a LOT of work if you want to accomplish what others say is impossible. And the reality is, you may not be up for it. Only you can decide that.
For me, folks like Robert Kiyosaki, John Maxwell, Tim Ferris, and others played some critical roles in my thinking (and still do) which helped me accomplish the little things I have done. The big one I recall prior to starting the internet company and my media company was realizing that the advice I was getting was from people who had no experience in what I was after and the advice was coming from people who had a mindset not of someone willing to create things.
Example, if you go to your friend who has no experience in the music industry and ask him for advice, you’ll get advice but it’s likely the wrong advice and it might put you on the wrong path. Some say bad advice is worst than no advice. Seek those who have accomplished what you’re trying to move towards and ask. I’ve noticed myself that successful people usually don’t hoard information and freely share it.
Hopefully some of this may help as these principles apply to music or anything in life. If you want to record an album, write it down and pursue it, we’ve got some great folks who can record you in the area. If you want to start a band, get out there and network, get on the Wiregrass musicians group and other Facebook groups, go to an open mic and get heard..etc. If you want to start a Reggae band in South Alabama, talk to Ken Kirkland, everyone said it could not be done. Point is, it starts with setting that goal and taking action without worrying about what others think or say. Let the haters hate! Rock on.
Over 3 years ago, something magical happened in the Wiregrass. Musicians of the Wiregrass area gathered at a small upstairs location in Ozark, Al (now known as the VIP room at Live at Harlow’s). It was an invite only party which offered free beer and beverages, a full stage with gear, and nothing in the way of doing what we musicians do… rock face.
The events featured at least 3 bands, but I recall we often had more, up to 6 or maybe 7. It ultimately provided fellowship, networking, the realization as musicians that we’re more alike than we think, and the most fun to be had in the area (it was really fun).
Anyway, I was proud to be a part of those events and whether or not known at the time, it filled a void for me personally and provided some much needed purpose. Those events are what ultimately set the course for what is known as Live at Harlow’s today and the very same rules still apply, 1. have fun, 2. melt face.
Fast forward 3 years… we’ve seen well over 100 performances and had the opportunity to meet some great people, artists, and bands. The mission and purpose still remains intact to provide local musicians and artists with a location to network, showcase, jam, and enjoy creating great memories.
This pro tip is about things I’ve seen or heard in those 3 plus years and sharing some ideas which might assist in your journey. One caveat: These opinions are mine and you may disagree with is certainly cool. I’ve tried to share them from both a venue owner standpoint as well as a musician standpoint given I’ve been fortunate to experience both.
Part 1: The negotiation / getting booked
From day one of opening the doors, I realized the position of venue owner / operator required me looking from a different lens. I was no longer the guy on the other end trying to get booked at the location, I was the guy trying to figure out the logistics and feasibility to getting the band on stage. This required looking at things like keeping the lights on, insurance, safety, licenses, staff, budget…etc. I realized that it’s not cheap and wondered how venues could even stay open frankly. The very first thing I did prior to opening a venue was to call on other venues. I remember distinctly a local venue in the area who supports musicians tell me not to do it or only do it if you are willing to lose money. They proceed to tell me they have not paid themselves for 5 years… and after 3 years, I see why! But this is not about that and I’m just making the statement to share that venues are not the profit centers I once thought of as a young musician. I’m now able to see with metrics both sides of the equation and want to simply share some of my journey and thoughts.
Over these 3 plus years, one thing continues to be both fun and sometimes frustrating. “The negotiation” as I like to call it. I can say I’ve seen a myriad of negotiation styles for booking and I’ve experienced some interesting pitches from bands /artists. For some, the negotiation of getting booked seems like pulling teeth. For some, they don’t even understand it is a negotiation and make ridiculous demands. For others, they just want to be a part of what is happening which is cool.
My intent here is not to make a guide to booking or negotiation but to share some quick tips to consider from a venue perspective and to hopefully lead to a better success in your booking and relationships with venues. Let’s get started with some quick tips!
Quick Tip 1: Research the venue. Go online and look at pictures, read about it, find out what makes them tick prior to contact.
Quick Tip 2: Visit the venue you want to play. This will pay dividends in your discussion.
Sure, there are more things you can do prior to contacting the venue to be booked but failure to do at least one of those can really set the tone negatively in your approach.
All that being said, if I were to summarize my experience, it seems like there are 2 primary categories of band negotiation styles:
Band 1: All about the money
Band 2: All about the opportunity
Both are important to success and I’m not saying one or the other is not needed…but… it’s my personal opinion that the order in which you get to them is most important.
Example dialog to make a point:
Band 1 (All about the money): “Hey, my band wants to play there. We’re real good and we know our value. How many people do you have at the venue? For us to play there, we need XXXXX money”
Band 2 (All about the opportunity): “Good afternoon, we absolutely love your venue. I was there last weekend to see “Phil Lenz and the Road Warriors”, man they rocked and the sound was amazing. I think our band would be a great fit for your venue. You can check out videos of us here. We would love to see if it’s feasible to see if we can play at your venue. Thanks for your time!”
Put yourself in the venues shoes now for a moment. Let’s analyze the opportunities missed or perceptions which could arise:
Band 1: “Hey, my band wants to play there”
Pending who you are talking to at the venue, just the word “Hey” in this example could be seen as disrespectful followed by “my band wants to play there” doesn’t really make the venue want to “learn more”. The fact they even use “there” is a lack of addressing where they want to play.
We’re real good and we know our value.
As a venue owner, I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone say “we suck” so just saying you are good does not necessarily add to the conversation rather opens the door to venues getting an impression of arrogance. As for the value statement, it’s important for a band to have standards but the timing of it probably isn’t good in the first paragraph of contact.
How many people do you have at the venue?
Something like this usually confirms the initial perception, this band has not even taken the time to research where they want to play. Obviously, their time is more important than the venue staff. Furthermore, venues may simply trash this because the band is now taking their time to try and explain what could have been easily discovered.
For us to play there, we need XXXXX money.
Eventually, the communication should lead to reimbursement of services. However, knowing the venues capabilities, number of patrons, and other income streams is a big factor in how many X’s should be in the statement. Does the venue promote, provide production, have built in crowds? Point on this is, be cautious on your approach, work to make something mutually beneficial if possible so the conversation doesn’t end immediately. Case and point, if someone comes to me and says “We get $2,500 a night”, as much as I would love to make it happen, it’s just not feasible with our size. The conversation just ends and opportunity which could pay other dividends ceases. Additionally, venues talk with each other and know what to expect from bands and their ability to bring patrons so it can feel a bit insulting if you are pushing for way more than the area allows or what you make at other places of similar size / capacity.
Now let’s do a deep dive on band 2
Good afternoon, we absolutely love your venue.
Well thank you! Good afternoon to you as well. How can I help? – those are the words swirling now in the brains of the venue owners
I was there last weekend to see “Phil Lenz and the Road Warriors”, man they rocked and the sound was amazing.
Wow, this band is invested into seeing others and they took the time to come to our venue! They even recognized the hard work we put into our sound!
I think our band would be a great fit for your venue.
They came to see our venue.. check. They support others in the music area…check. Hmm.. I believe them and want to help them.
You can check out videos of us here.
I didn’t even have to search to try and find them! The fact they took the time to produce a great video let’s me know they also are committed to being professional.
We would love to see if it’s feasible to see if we can play at your venue.
Absolutely! I hope we can work together to create an amazing night which will benefit your band! Let’s work together. I hope our venue can make this work!
Thanks for your time!
My pleasure, I appreciate you reaching out.
Of course, I tried to create some polarization but i think it was important to get the point across. Truth is, if Band 1 would simply start with what Band 2 started with, the opportunity could still exist but it’s likely most venues would just hit delete or dismiss and move on to the next band who is looking for an opportunity.
Also, it’s important to note that it’s also a 2 way street with venues. Not all venues understand the relationship and what asset a band brings. One of the quick tips up front was visiting the venue, this is not just to scope out the size but to scope out the operations and maybe just ask the band of their experience of the venue from their perspective. This article was written as a perspective from a venue owner (myself) and where I could see opportunity to craft the pitch (as a musician). However, don’t sell yourself short either and make sure the venue is an asset and not a liability for your band. It’s no fun to play with an owner that doesn’t respect what you bring to the table and sees you simply as a pawn. It can also hurt your brand playing a place that doesn’t market or work to get crowds (regardless as much as you wanted that money or “don’t care because you are getting paid”). For me, I look at long term investments with venues and will gladly take a reduction up front if it’s building opportunity and will pay consistent dividends down the road.
I end with these thoughts:
Success comes to those who communicate and partner with others without attitude. Teamwork makes the dream work.
Bands / Venues typically want the same thing. Work to make it feasible so you get to play, make some spending cash, and do what you love
Don’t forget why you even play music. Don’t let pride or money prevent you from experiencing an opportunity which could pay other dividends
Be a part of the music community and support others!
Thanks for reading this. I’ve got a whole bunch of other things I’d like to share soon. Rock on and be good to each other.
